Robert Stark talks to Giovanni Dannato about the Mechanisms of Social Status
Rob Stark deserves substantial credit in recent series of posts I have written on the sexual market and status as key forces in societies. He likes to make suggestions and we’ll bounce some ideas off each other. The result has often been ideas I deem worth developing in a post and which Rob sees sufficiently of interest for the next podcast. I was actually reluctant at first to write on the sexual market again since that is a subject that has been well-covered in the dissident sphere many times over by people far better qualified to comment than I am. But I came to realize discussing the matter with Rob that almost all treatments of the subject takes place on the individual level, rather than the macro-societal level. Or, rather if the larger scale is mentioned, it’s to suggest how the individual could do better(i.e. expating to Eastern Europe.) So then I agreed with him it was an area worth working on.
With the status and high school article, Rob shared useful sources on the subject such as Vincent Law’s article criticizing Chad Nationalism(linked to in high school article). High school hadn’t been the first example of status systems on my mind so I credit both Rob Stark and Ulric Kerensky in helping to inspire that focus. The subject kept coming up with them and around the web until I realized something about it was at the very heart of American culture.
Writing is a solitary endeavor requiring hours alone and self-motivation but I have found in recent months that discussion and collaboration are enjoyable parts of the creative process.
The Macro-Sexenomics of Female Beauty
Macro-Sexenomics: Female Beauty Dysgenics in Modern Society
The Mechanics of Status
High School and Status in America
The Social Cosmology
The Alt-Sphere Should Embrace Culture and Aesthetics
27 replies on “Podcast with Rob Stark: Status Mechanics and Alt-Right Aesthetics”
Interesting interview and conversation. thanks. Sorry, but I don’t agree that white women aren’t intrinsicllay more desirable than others. Quite an oversight if you ask me. All you have to do to challenge that assumption is ask yourself why all non-white men who can mange to make a lot of money, why do they so ardently choose (and god bless them high-status males) white women. Maybe we should ask Bill Cosby? Or Tiger. They’re all blondes too for some reason. Has anyone done a statistical study on this? Call it the OJ Status Seeking Out-Group Mating Preference.
I know it’s kind of heretical to say that, but the whole manosphere sometimes seems like it’s wall to wall white woman worship where they’ll compare a top model white woman to that picture of a 60 year old aborigine woman to make their point.
If you’re rich, you can go after the few white women who aren’t fat and have the perfect balance of facial beauty and secondary sexual traits.
But how does that compare to what an ordinary guy sees on the street in real life? The average plain white woman honestly isn’t that special especially when compared to typical Latinas, Asians, or even Blacks who aren’t fat.
One thing I find quite funny is how many manosphere figures have Asian and Jewish partners despite their protests to the contrary. As you were saying, revealed preference. One thing the whole sphere agrees on is white women have terrible princess attitudes and clearly even the biggest ideologues seem like they’re willing to sacrifice a theoretical .5 points so they can better enjoy the other 23.5 hours of their day.
As I mention in the talk, the silly protect the white wimminz obsession of WN 1.0 was one of its downfalls.
“The average plain white woman honestly isn’t that special especially when compared to typical Latinas, Asians, or even Blacks who aren’t fat.”
My point was: white women are physically more beautiful than other races. That beauty is absolute and can be measured objectively. And that wealthy men’s preference (whether white, black, brown, or yellow) for white women proves it.
I’m pointing out for the average guy in real life, that discrepancy, if it is there, is a lot smaller and there are other factors that are often more important. Maybe Black men are objectively the best running backs at a professional level but on the street most you meet are out of shape, flat-footed doofuses smoking through packs of newports. It seems to me pretty much like that with white women. I don’t really get the singular hysteria about them. Also, guys in a nerdy(despite their assertions of alphaness) internet counterculture often date high IQ minorities because those women assign more status to intellect and are far more tolerant of aspbergerish behaviors. So an NRx IT guy who likes to read about medieval legal codes during lunch break, and who can maybe hope for a white 5 easily upgrades to an Asian or Jewish 6.
“I’m pointing out for the average guy in real life, that discrepancy, if it is there, is a lot smaller and there are other factors that are often more important.”
We’re probably talking about two different things. My thing is beauty. You don’t want to hear about it. Okay, fine. But, blacks [to me] are boring. Sorry. Beauty is not boring.
“So an NRx IT guy who likes to read about medieval legal codes during lunch break, and who can maybe hope for a white 5 easily upgrades to an Asian or Jewish 6.”
Totally understand. Go for it.
Giovanni you really ought to listen to the first part of this podcast on anarchic-tyranny by James LaFond. LaFond is a writer who writes about sci-fi and violence who lives in the ghetto in Baltimore Maryland. He goes back to ancient Rome and the dynamics of the elite suppression of the middle class and others that threaten them. It ties into a lot of stuff you talk about and I think with a few comments he provides a great deal of illumination. A world view that you don’t see often and that I see you producing quite often. Anyways I think you would appreciate it.
The whole podcast is great but the first part is very appose.
I have heard some good things about LaFond before and man, this guy is fascinating to listen to. Never thought of boxing as being unsual or unnatural in much of the world and that it might arise as a combat ritual when wrestling is too mild and sword duals mean the officer classes are killing each other off.
I don’t know what happened to this video bit’s NOT what I linked. Before it pointed to LaFond. Censored???
And I want to say you and Stark and co-host Sam Kevorkian raise some interesting questions.
To my mind, rich, powerful, high-status men, the stars, cannot be compared to poorer men, i.e., the vast majority. They have women throwing themselves at them. They choose which ones they want. They aren’t constrained by financial considerations when it comes to sex. They are like gods. Even divorce is a mere formality to them. While divorce to most men is devastating. So, I’m extremely interested in their choice of women. Take for example, Keith Richards, the Rolling Stones notorious hell-raiser, cock-hound. Who did he marry? A Norwegian-American model from a very conservative family. No fool that lad.
Don’t worry, I knew someone would probably call me out on that the moment it left my mouth. Maybe I’m an outlier, but especially when I was at my horniest in teens to mid-20s I found Latinas, mixed women, even the prettier Blacks more attractive than most White women. It felt natural to exchange a bit of facial looks on average for more exaggerated secondary traits. As I’ve gotten older White women and Asians have grown more physically appealing. I’ve slept with women of different races and I’ve pretty much liked them all so I guess I don’t get the obsession. White women(even the ugly ones) seem like they’re more picky hence why I wonder if it’s just a status thing.
I guess as I see it, for every Norwegian bombshell there’s tons of jaw-dropping models from places like Brazil and Colombia that in my opinion are at least as hot.
I had a very good bachelor friend like you. A writer. Then Bush won in 2000. He became very political and was outraged that I voted for Bush. Don’t see him anymore. But I got married (again) so that may have had something to do with it.
I do wonder if people’s sexual partner preference doesn’t have something to do with their politics. I was a cock-hound for a while and slept with all kinds of women. Looking back I much prefer white women with the caveat that they’re awful wife material.
I get the sense that one thing that separates me from the core alt-right dissidents is I don’t really feel any connection to an established culture, though I admire that quality in others. I actually see myself as my own thing and I work alongside others towards common goals. So it would affect my politics in that they want to revive a lost tribe and I want to participate in the creation of a new one. It might also explain how they long for this emotional closeness with white women in particular as a proxy for re-connection to what they lost, often a thankless task. To me, they are just women. I also wonder if famous foreigners and other races marrying blondes is kind of a Jay Gatsby effect, trying to marry into a high status culture. It seems to me Black celebs, especially athletes, who did not aspire to respectability in White society are happy to bang every broad in the hood. Look at Mike Tyson, Antonio Cromartie, many others. Sure they bang white women too, but their babies always seem to be black.
“they want to revive a lost tribe and I want to participate in the creation of a new one.”
Fine. Just don’t avoid the consequences of the experiment. Don’t let other people suffer your wishful thinking. Go back to DC and deal with felons running Metro you have to use to pay the taxes for supporting “unwed mothers” shipped into your neighborhood followed by hood-rat bad boy “friends” checking out your daughter and their bastards fucking up your local school.
“I also wonder if famous foreigners and other races marrying blondes is kind of a Jay Gatsby effect”
Doesn’t matter. That’s putting thoughts in their heads. Probably cultural appropriation and you’re racist.
You sound like you’re pissed off. Let’s step back and call it a night.
I’m certainly not angry, well maybe a little. Please take it as a friendly warning. I’ve been involved lately with too many people, baby boomers, who are 100% status-marking Eloi. They make their little speeches reviving the good ‘ol days of campus protest against the Man and the war. Or burning their bras. It’s always 1968 for them. People who invested their egos and lives in “changing the world’ end up pathetic hypocrits and cowards. The worst of them all are Episcopalians. Be careful. I’ve seen the results up close and personal and it ain’t pretty.
If you seriously believe you want to make a new tribe my advice would be to actually get out there and roll around in the mud with them. If you want massive non-white immigration, live with these people. Don’t tell me you want this racially mixed society and prove it by sleeping with a few black girls. LOL. I’ve seen that movie before. That’s insulting.
I guarantee that if you live around blacks (or Muslims) for a few years, and I mean large numbers of them, I guarantee you aren’t going to be so confident about creating a new people.
But, I suspect you won’t do it. You’re clever and clever people have a way of preaching one thing while doing something else. And the poor, dumber schlubs who believe the bullshit end up dead.
ia, I believe you mistook the meaning of my statement. I see the dissident internet, for example, as a nascent tribe that I’m proud to take part in. I get the feeling you believe I’m proposing a new mixed master race or something.
Ironically, if white guys were less worshipful, the women might actually drop the attitude and respect them more. And that’s why I really don’t care if they are absolutely the most beautiful or not if they are going to be useless and spiteful. The whole fetish, in my opinion is dumb and counterproductive, even for the hardcore ethnic solidarity guys.
“I see the dissident internet, for example, as a new nascent tribe that I’m proud to take part in. I get the feeling you believe I’m proposing a new mixed master race or something.”
I don’t even know how to respond to that sophistry. LOL.
My original point was that wealthy black men desire beautiful white women. Putting thoughts into their heads as to why is patronizing and irrelevant. I’m merely describing the behavior of wealthy blacks, or for that matter, all wealthy men regardless of race. They desire white women over all others, especially blondes. If beauty of the woman isn’t paramount they’d sleep with fat ugly ones. Right? You, for some reason, brought up the manosphere. Whether intentional or not you missed and keep missing the point. Grrr.
Why is it a sophistry to bring up what I mean by a tribe when you seemed to associate that concept(for reasons I do not understand) with some scheme to deliberately mix the races?
You’ve made your original point. Why is it always American Black guys people want to talk about? How about rich guys and stars from huge places like China and India? Do you see any big demand there for white women? Maybe it’s a thing and I just haven’t heard of it.
I bring up blacks because they’re the weapon of choice, also Muslims.
But I’m glad you brought up China and India since I’ve lived in both places. Yes indeed. “Whiteness” is more desirable although white women are frowned upon as marriage material. In India the upper castes are whiter (and physically bigger) than the lower castes. There must have been a selection process going on for a long time. In China, the women cover themselves at the beach from head to toe to avoid the darkening effects of sunlight. Northern Chinese are also lighter (and larger) than southern Chinese and this would probably also arise from selection over time. I believe the epicanthic fold is considered less desirable in women in general. I may be wrong about that but it’s my impression.
Giovanni Dannato. Listened to your podcast. Always good, and I hate podcast as a general rule as I can read about ten times faster at least.
Your are officially a MAN OF HUGE STATUS. We should make statues of you and have you pass out medals of divinity that we will cherish. We appreciate your writing and find it immensely stimulating.
I note that the artist frequently are great at getting girls so attacking artist would seem to be nonproductive. The changing of Churches to be like Walmarts has happened in my lifetime. Churches used to, several decades ago, often have slightly weird styles and were modern looking in whatever mod seemed to be at the time.
Haha. Blogging is a nerdy hobby with little real world status. Normal people are all on social media.
That said, I gradually discover I may have had more influence over the years than I realize and that’s really what it’s all about.
I thought very like you regarding podcasts until I started listening to some in my car. Then it made a lot more sense. Also, I think a group podcast is better than just listening to one person talk at you like it’s a book on tape. It’s better to feel like you’re listening in on a discussion and getting a feel for the speakers in a social environment. The guys who do Myth of the 20th century have a really good group rapport.
As a Jew, the WN obsession with protecting muh wimminz seems rather bizarre to me. But whatever – it’s your movement, so none of my business. I’m not white.
I do think, though, that white-knightism is inversely correlated with TFR, in that cultures not preoccupied with pedestalizing the princesses are better at making babies than those which are. If you want black and Muslim men to back off from white women, I think that raising the status of white women by constantly fretting about them is counterproductive. Their status should be lowered, if anything.
But again, I’m just a perfidious kike, so what do I know.
I hesitate to keep recommending you read things because…well people are always telling everyone to read this or that but for some reason IO keep getting these food links that line up with a lot you’re saying. Anyways I’ve been reading a lot about the Rolling Stones/60’s/He;;s Angels and most of all the “Diggers”. The Diggers really interest me. I find, somehow with some impenetrable search, a story about how the Diggers were totally into status displays and that was their whole reason for doing what they did. Anyways the first dew paragraphs start talking about status. To preface the Diggers were a group of people that made up free food for people mostly in San Francisco and believed that there was enough to go around for everyone and that it should be shared.
Click to access hodgdon_chapter3.pdf
I think you will find this interesting…
Peterson observes the Nazis already tried to revive a monolithic Greco-Roman aesthetic. To the modern eye it seems soulless, cold, and threatening. I guess just one more indictment of trying to turn back the clock.
I would say I have a high degree of openness, little need for rigid order, low disgust for certain things, a perfect combination to infuriate straight-edged people. I in turn often can’t stand them.
Even as a little kid when I saw a freshly dead animal my first impulse was to dissect it and see what was inside. I am messy and don’t clean up unless it is somehow impeding the functionality of the space. I am extremely averse to clutter of my mental space, though.
I would say I am fundamentally orderly, but just observe how the straight edge is infrequent in nature. Even crystals seldom form perfectly.
Massively imposed order as Hitler envisioned is more costly to maintain against the forces of nature.
I like it. Some the most beautiful things I’ve seen are are Greek and Roman temples. A couple.
Garni Temple Complex – Garni, Armenia Garni-Temple-Armenia.jpg
Temple of Hera Italy